Six Dates You Need To Do Before Buying the Ring

Marriage can be a wonderful thing, I have a good wife who supports me and I feel that I can trust. Not all women are like that however. Modern western society has corrupted so many women (and men) that it becomes very difficult to distinguish the needles from the haystack. Traditional dating activities like “dinner and a movie” or something similar are enjoyable, and are not any harm (other than to your wallet) but they do little in helping you find out what sort of integrity the woman you are dating has. There are some activities you can do to help you see those red flags before you make such a serious commitment.

Don’t be Kip, play it safe.


Go to Church With Her

“If a person has strong religious beliefs, the risk of divorce is 14 percent less and having no religious affiliation makes you 14 percent more likely to get divorced.”

I have found that church is a good venue to find quality women. While it is not a foolproof deal, the likelihood of finding a virtuous girl at church is greater than finding one at a bar. They are in a setting that teaches family values and virtues such as honesty, love and respect. Of course, what is taught varies, but the more orthodox religions do increase likelihood of a solid marriage and family, although it does necessitate a more rigorous lifestyle if you do marry. Find something you really can believe in, commit yourself to it, and you will find and attract women who are committed  and virtuous as well.

If, on the other hand, she seems unsure about going to church, or she doesn’t know anyone in her congregation, she is just putting on a show for you. Depending on your personal religious affiliation, this could be a red flag to take into consideration. Or, if her church is vastly different than your personal beliefs, that would be another red flag, even if she is committed to her own religion.

Netflix and Chill

This is not what you are thinking. Promiscuity has ran amuck and has caused a great deal of distrust in marriage (for good reason). This date is more of a test. If you tell her that you want to take it easy and maybe make dinner at home for her to come over to watch a movie. See what her reaction is. If she has no reservations on the third date, she is the pump and dump type. However, if she suggests making it a double date, or something more public so she can hold onto her virtue (in question at this point), you may have a keeper.

A word of warning – if she is a virgin, she may take offense at this and see you as a player. Make sure you have a backup plan. I blew it with a girl (Stake President’s daughter) doing this and lost her trust. Have a double date already set up, and just ask her. Make it so she thinks it was just a misunderstanding that she can overlook.

Something Strenuous

I love hiking, so does my wife. However, most women profess to love the outdoors, but reality is something different. They will put on a show in order to gain your favor. If you go for a leisurely stroll through the city park or a walk on the beach, it will do little to show if she is really into that. Because of this, you will need to push her a little, see how far she is willing to go.

The day I decided that my wife was probably a keeper was a group date (Mormons are funny that way) there were four of us guys who all got together and each of us invited a girl to go cross country skiing. Until that date, I knew she said she likes doing that stuff, but I have heard that from others. We really pushed ourselves that day. When the others wanted to turn around, my wife wanted to keep going. My wife demonstrated to me that she has a real persistence in what she does. That is something of value in marriage, even if you are not into high outdoor adventure.

Something Charitable

Lots of “good” women profess to be charitable, to care for the sick or say we need to do something. Is that reality, or is she just a load of hot air? Make her put her money where her mouth is.

Not far from our church while in college, there was this retirement center where this old, bed ridden population hung out and waited to die. On Sundays, there was a group of us in choir that would go over there and go “caroling” where we would visit these invalids, say hello and sing a hymn or two. While not the funnest thing to do, I felt appreciated. Also, while my wife couldn’t carry a tune, she did provide eye candy and attention to the old dying men.

Cook Food With Her

While young, many lack decent cooking skills. That is not a big deal. Basic homemaking skills can be learned. However, what is tougher to learn is attitude. Is she the type that shies away from housework? Will she have the ambition to help clean up? Pay attention to how she carries herself in the kitchen. Will she use a cookbook? Is her kitchen loaded with prepackaged food, rather than the basic ingredients? Does she use too much butter, salt, or sugar? She may be able to metabolize that in her 20’s, not so well in her 40’s. Far too many couples gain serious weight the first few years of marriage. You will show better appreciation for her cooking by not eating too much and becoming a disgusting fatbody packed with jelly doughnuts.

We cooked many dinners together (still do). It is a fun activity, and you can find out many things about her if you just pay attention. Besides, you get to enjoy the spoils afterwards.

Go Shopping With Her

As lame as it sounds, shopping can be one of the more telling things about her. This activity is sort of like the “Netflix and Chill” mentioned above in that you place her in a position of temptation and see what she does. Will she go for the name brands, or is she into bargain hunting? Because this is one of the more common complaints in marriage, and popular reasons for divorce, seeing what she does with money is a serious red flag if she fails.

Depending on your money situation, you may take her to a mall, a sports supply store or whatever, but make it frivolous. It won’t tell you anything if she buys milk and eggs at the grocery store. But, if she goes window shopping and has to get that new purse, serious red flag.

Take It All Into Consideration

Nobody is perfect. The red flags you see as you date are not necessarily automatic disqualifiers. We all have imperfections, and they do too. If you don’t see imperfections, you need to give it more time. Make sure you go in with a sound mind, and not committing just out of lust. As Benjamin Franklin said, “Keep your eyes wide open before marriage, half shut afterwards”. Cast a wide net, and play the field. A good portion of the manosphere is dedicated to picking up women. But, if you want a serious relationship, you also need to know how to sift out the chaff AND you will need to know how to keep her virtuous.

There are lots of women out there that would be a treat to sleep with, but not so many women that would be a treat to marry. They are out there though. Use your talent and find her, without being deceived by some wolf in sheep’s clothing. If you do so, your likelihood for a decent marriage will improve.

Author: Jim Johnson

As a man in his early 40's, I grew up on a dairy farm in an irreligious home. Disgusted with the choice of women out there, I looked into religion to find a worthwhile mate. At 23, I joined the LDS (Mormon) faith, married, became a civil engineer, and now have six children. My favorite things are puppies, long walks on the beach, and the color blue (not really).

60 thoughts on “Six Dates You Need To Do Before Buying the Ring”

  1. It doesn’t hurt to repeat what Jim said: “Modern western society has corrupted so many women (and men) that it becomes very difficult to distinguish the needles from the haystack.” I said it a number of times in the past: the problem IS NOT marriage per se, but finding the adequate wife material. Yes, we all know the nature of women, but certainly there are women that we can consider less corrupted than others, and they are precisely the ones hard to find.

    However, I’m not talking about Unicorns. The ideal women is a fiction created by poets and novelist centuries ago that is delightful to read about, but simply doesn’t exist in the real world.

    1. The idea of the ideal woman was indeed a creation of writers. I think it was their way of wooing ladies in their time and day no different than a dude spewing a lot of compliments (game) at women in a nigbtclub trying to get laid.
      Unfortunately, the literature remained and was integrated into the curriculum by schools and tv by the media.

      1. Pretty sure tv and the media had little to do with Brown, Tennyson, Shakespeare and Lord Byron being popular.

        1. Those guys were the entertainment media (loosely speaking) for centuries but their work was truly made available to everyone through movies e.g. Rome and Juliette.

    2. My gripe about almost any, even most normal woman is their inability to see context to things. My girl, for instance, is great, traditional and caring, but she has hard times applying contexts to events and things. Especially historical and cultural context.

  2. Shopping itself is not lame but it’s a pain going shopping with women. One minute you’re trying on a shirt only to come out of the cabins to look for her in the huge departments dedicated to women.

    1. “Go try on dresses. I’ll be here looking at the men’s hanger.”

      Seriously, though, I take my fiancee with me when I’m trying different wardrobe. I’m perfectly happy buying replacements or upgrades for clothes I’ve already vetted (jeans, dress shirts, etc.), but if it’s anything new I need a second set of eyes, and as a former tailor you can’t find much better.

      But that’s me taking her to stores to buy my clothes. I long since stopped clothes shopping for her – none of those ladies’ stores even share a city block with anything vaguely interesting to me.

      1. A second pair of eyes is indeed helpful but women always get sidetracked by clothes and such, always. Matter of fact now that I’m single I only go shopping on weekends during the non busy part of the day of during the week albeit that is rare due to work commitments.

        1. I had the foresight to engage myself to a frugal lass who gets almost everything from secondhand stores. I take her into places like Kohls, where the ladies’ clothes are usually either too big or too expensive for her, when she’s tired or distracted by work concerns and thus unable to muster that annoying shopping energy.

          If I thought it would increase my shopping time by a single second, I wouldn’t take her. That’s my policy, and it works.

  3. I really enjoy Jim’s articles. For all the complaining a lot of men do about modern women, this is a very well thought out approach to finding a quality woman. Thanks Jim.

  4. Good stuff, Jim! Valid points, thoughtful and very practical.

    I met my wife in the gym in 1994. Our first date was a workout. We’ll be happily married 20 years this coming February. Healthy, clean living brought us together and it formed a very solid foundation for where we are today.

    If I may add something to your point of cooking together – This is not only important for sustenance, but with the right woman, can be a very sexy…whether you cook together, she cooks for you, or you cook for her. I say this not only the single guys, but the married ones as well, you want to increase your SMV? – Learn how to cook. You don’t need to become a world-class chef, but if you develop a good working knowledge of food and basic cooking techniques, you can seduce at will. It’s a very powerful thing!

    1. Thanks man. I would agree with you on cooking. I made an effort to learn to cook when I took off to college. I got a standard Betty Crocker cookbook and just made stuff from scratch. Very important skill protection to and after marriage,

      1. A key advantage to cooking is that you save a lot of money over time. I can pay an hour’s wages for chicken marsala with mashed potatoes and greens, or I can spend the same amount for all the ingredients fresh (including the cooking wine, cream, and more potatoes than a man can reasonably eat in a week).

        I’ve finally got job offers lined up (it only took all summer – “thanks, Obama!”), but for the past few months I’ve been eating almost exclusively at home. Some simple meal ideas for the frugal-minded:

        – Five bean stew (five bags or cans of beans, pork shanks, an onion, salt, pepper, garlic, red pepper)
        – Chicken and Rice (1lb rice, 1lb chicken pieces – thighs are cheap and delicious, chicken stock – homemade or bouillon, salt, pepper, garlic, red pepper)
        – Sausage and Potato soup (onion, spicy sausage, potatoes, salt, pepper)
        – Stir Fry (veggies of your choice, diced pork or chicken, soy sauce, coconut oil, ginger, garlic, onion, salt, pepper; saute the ginger and garlic a bit before adding the ingredients, because that helps for some reason)
        – Pork Chops and Mashed Potatoes (loin chops – usually the cheapest, Tony’s, black pepper, instant mashed potatoes, milk or half-and-half, butter; instant potatoes are pretty cheap and easy to make, and you can make a great chop with Tony’s on one side and black pepper on the other)
        – Milk Steak with Mashed Potatoes (brown ground beef in a skillet with some onion, then simmer for a bit with cream or half-and-half, season with salt and pepper)
        – Egg Drop Soup (bring chicken stock to a light boil with a bit of soy sauce, ginger, and garlic, then slowly stir in raw eggs; thicken if desired with a bit of corn starch)

        Of course, any and all of these meals can be supplemented cheaply with some vegetables (I find broccoli, carrots, celery, cabbage, and leafy greens are cheap and versatile) and cheap starches like potatoes or rice.

      2. Cooking is amazing. I love waking up on Sat morning and making a nice breakfast for my girl. She’s always so greatful.

        We almost never buy processed foods and barely eat out. Why would I pay for something I can make myself? However, nothing beats eating at a rustic, rural diner when on a road trip.

  5. “Go Shopping With Her”

    I remember the time I took my 2nd SB/GF shopping at J Crew because she needed a winter coat. She ended up grabbing the coat + over $600 worth of non-coat related clothes. I did not take the hint, and it went downhill from there. I was a slow learner back in the “old days”.

    1. With sugar babies you shouldn’t have to spend more than $400 per date , $300 to her plus dinner/drinks . That gets me about 5 hours worth of fucking. That’s what the going rate is here in Dallas at least . I’ve made the mistake of spending more but when you’re with a 9 the first time In life it’s hard to think straight .

      1. “That’s what the going rate is here in Dallas at least…”

        I have to believe there is a BIG difference between Dallas & NYC.
        Maybe I should move…

        1. Some try to push for more of course or flat out reject that offer but there are many who need and want the money quick. The key is finding those girls on sa or whatever venue you choose. As a comparison a $300000 house in dallas suburbs gets you 3500 Sq ft. Downtown dalLas for the same price you get half that space .

        1. well, unlike you, I cannot bed a 9 without some $$ behind it. I wanted to know what a 9 is like to bang.

            1. A 9 gets attention from hundreds of males daily she will choose the most successful and best looking amongst them all because she can. It’s nature. I choose an easier less stressful way. It’s all the same in the end . Actually in my mind it’s not a big deal anymore to have a 9 once you’ve had it. I still chase wothout throwing $$$ out thete ,don’t get me wrong but my sense of urgency is less as I get older

              1. If you’re happy spending $$$ on women that’s fine but you can definitely bang 9s and 10s without doing that.

                1. I have never seen it no matter what any guy says. I have seen either looks or money be a factor or a combination of the 2.

                  1. Your two statements are in conflict with each other. You’ve never seen it because you’ve never looked. If you only hang out with golddiggers then that’s all you’ll find.

                    1. I see all kinds of people in my professional life, friends in hang out with , and online . All those who claim they are poor and not good looking and have 9s are full of shit. The 9s who are strippers who date losers typically are loser women themselves. I’ve never seen a high value 9 with a man who has a lower smv, looks,money etc than herself . By nature and by what even online players state , they never do and it’s against their nature . You’re making assumptions about me.

                    2. Your professional life is sheltered. You are making an assumption that because its like that for you, that its like that for everyone else. It isn’t. All of these rationalisations are leading me to believe that you are insecure. You don’t need to be. Like I said, if you like spending all this money on women that’s perfectly fine. You don’t need to justify it. But something tells me that ultimately, you are not comfortable with it.

                      Others, like me, prefer a different approach. I know where to find money grubbing hoes. But I’m not interested – those women disgust me. But everyone has their own style.

                    3. Now you are using feminist like shaming language. I am not going to prove myself , I won’t, so go ahead and assume that I am insecure. The type of language you are using is why most of us left ROK. It’s all bullshit. Let’s get to the facts, because that is what is important.
                      All the so-called PUA experts have been have proven to be frauds:

                      David DeAngelo = Married a 4 at best. Made millions of dollars from SoSuave. Some of the information was useful most of it, useless clown game.

                      Di Ruina (I think that is correct) – ended up marrying a Russian in Russia. Big Deal, we all can do that. There are plenty of matchmaking services to accommodate that request.

                      David Lyons – his cold approach videos on Youtube have proven to be staged

                      Mystery – he’s a good looking guy who married a good looking girl…

                      Tucker Max – he married maybe a 7..he could do better , she looks like a man.

                      Troy Francis – the guy on ROK who went from walking down the street and miraculously picking up French Girls to now admitting that day game sucks. He even cites PUA statistics from 10 years ago. However, he preached over the last 2 years how successful he was. Totally smells of fraud especially how he plugs his books which if you read the free ones are vague in nature. 2008 all over again?

                      Truth be told, no man, nobody knows what 9s and 10s want. They could be vastly different things. Some are actually religious, some like tatts, some like money, some like looks, some like mid eastern men, some like whit guys. Men trying to teach men about what women want has been a futile effort since the dawn of man and to mislead young men with this garbage is sketchy and not a good idea. I can easily game 6s and 7s if I were to do this everyday. However, anything above is a bit harder and I have not seen one guy other than rich famous guys who can bed 9s and 10s with eas with just “game” alone, and even your beloved Troy has been re-defining game as having the total package, which is as obvious as green grass or the blue sky.

                    4. You really are sensitive. If you feel ashamed that’s on you not me.

                      You don’t have to prove yourself and then you write four paragraphs trying to prove yourself. It seems to me that the person you’re trying to convince is yourself. After all, how can you possibly convince me that my life hasn’t happened?

                    5. you keep adding labels and underhanded insults to me when I am just talking about facts. I think you are projecting.

                    6. The only fact you mentioned is that you spend 100s of dollars to bang 9s. Its not necessary to do that but when questioned about it you become very defensive, in spite of the fact that I told you what you are doing is fine. That tells me that you are not comfortable doing it which doesn’t surprise me because I wouldn’t feel comfortable doing it either.

                      Again if you find my observations insulting that’s on you. Instead maybe you should consider that there’s maybe some guys are getting laid with 9s without spending money and that perhaps you can too.

  6. If you’re really considering getting married: go shopping with her and her mother; do something charitable with her and her mother. Then listen to them talk about it, and take note of the tone. You’ll see what awaits you.

    1. I like the idea. I should have mentioned hanging with her family. I didn’t have the chance with my wife as we were in college but it is telling

    2. Oh, you can tell so much about her when you spend time with her family. My ex, for instance, great girl overall, but had some odd jealousy outbursts.

      Later I learn her father had a secret second family with teenage kids, and my ex learnt about when she was a young adult. Thus, it created a sence of didtrust in men in her. And I had to suffer for her father’s actions.

      Definitely, get to know the family before jumping into something serious.

    1. It’s pretty crazy to see how little time people have spent together before getting married.

      1. Lots will spend all kinds of time together, but you don’t learn much by playing video games or hanging out with mutual friends.

  7. Keep the dates simple – the simpler the better. Focus on productive stuff that you’d be doing anyway. Avoid her steamrolling your schedule.

    AS WE KNOW paleo diet is good. Meat is good. Fire good.

    PALEO DATING bypasses millennia of female manipulative hucksterism that has evolved and all that it entails.

    GATHERING ROCKS counted as a good first date in prehistory. “Hey you ugh. You helpum me get rocks. I like your curves and hair.” From the first time you encounter a prospective woman, try to steer her schedule and agenda to compliment yours. Make your priorities the same as her schedule too so she gets used to being your third hand. Avoid getting bent out of shape and ending up dressed in a tuxedo holding flowers like Pepe LePew. NO paleo caveman would be caught dead without his spear while dressed like a bobbing penguin and supplicating to some tittied curvacious primate who lacks testes. HER CORRECT PURPOSE is obvious to all but a blind man.

    MODERN DAY paleo dating follows the same theme – GRAB her by her ‘schedule’ and crunch it into your schedule. Doing so you find that you now posess said woman – ugh.

    Keep the schedule:

    *Pick your favored hottie from acquaintance circle or venue and employ her assistance. “Hold this bucket Becky” – consider it a first ‘date’ when she holds said bucket while you find worms for fish bait on wet soil or grass below in public. Lay the breadcrumbs. After she’s assisted you once, ram that hook deeper and have one more thing . . and one more . . and so on. Never say “I’m attracted to you”. Say something along the lines of – “Oh one more thing. Stand back and tell me if my tail lights are good on the boat trailer.” She could be a woman you just met. But keep dropping ‘one more thing’ on her until she forgets her silly hamster routine and she returns at attention like “What else does this guy want?” She’s almost ready to sit down and ride your course. If she says “I’ve got a job (or class) to get to” – tell her to hurry back. At this point she’s 50% likely to drop her silly bullshit routine to get back to YOU and YOUR schedule.

    *It also counts as a date when you request a woman you’ve met to accompany you to Auto Zone to fetch Rotilla and filter, gaskets and whatever else your gas powered beast requires. Throw the filter at her and play catch with her in the aisle so she’s on her toes. The day is young and it’s going to be a fun dirty day.

    See – what we’re shooting for here basically is a traditional farm hand/wife servant who snaps to the call, who is drawn into a world where she finds herself most comfortable barefoot, wearing a dress and tending to ALL the facets of her future master’s agenda – one thing after another. Eventually she’ll be breeding, tit feeding and keeping her master’s balls drained. All in a good day she grows to never forget the the balls. She has done good and feels positive about herself when all tasks are done and the balls are happy. A perfect day:

  8. All great suggestions. Let me add three more:

    1- a date with your family. If she acts like a bitch to them or talks shit about them afterward, next. Also pay attention to your family’s input about her. Some may be bullshit (you have to rely on your own knowledge of your family), but most likely you will get brutal honesty if you ask for it.

    2 – a date with her family. If she acts like a bitch to them or talks shit about them aftereard, next. Pay close attention to how they act to you. Are these people going to be allies or enemies? Are they going to be a resource once your family starts to grow, or a never-ending source of headaches and drama?

    3 – a date with both families. Can these people all get along? If not, you will find an endless stream of annoyances from petty jealousies over how much time grandkids spend on the phone to which house you’re spending the holidays (on that, here’s my advice, spend it at YOUR house and make your own traditions – family is always welcome to attend if they can behave together, and figuring that out is one of the purposes of date three.).

    1. As a friend told me years ago while I was in the process of getting divorced, “the girl is her family. Absolutely true. If they’re stupid/mean/crazy, there you are.

      And if you’re dealing with a Borderline, all bets are off. They do a great job of selling themselves (completely artificial) until they get what they want.

  9. Nice work Jim.
    Though not necessarily a ‘date’ I’d also recommend involving her in something that really interests you, whether it be work, hobby, project, etc. I’m fond of saying the interestED man is the interestING man. Its a way to showcase yourself at your highest intensity. THAT’s the guy you want her to fall for.

  10. If she treats servers at restaurants badly (sends food back, asks for LOTS of changes to the menu item, complains about the service, demands specially cooked food, etc) she is a hard NO.

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